Discussion:
Thornton's $15 Fib
(too old to reply)
Chuck Wright
2005-10-29 20:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Thornton's $15 Fib
by Ari Armstrong, October 27, 2005

Susan Thornton correctly writes in her October 27 column for The Denver Post: "Referendum C... would
allow the state to keep and spend the taxes it collects for the next five years." According to the
Blue Book (page 7), Referendum C would increase state spending by $3.743 billion over that period.
Furthermore, "Beginning in 2011, Referendum C is estimated to increase state spending by $995 million,
plus annual increases for inflation and population growth."

That billion-dollar a year increase is on top of already-scheduled increases. Legislative Council, the
same outfit that prepared the Blue Book, predicted that "Actual Appropriations," a portion of the budget
related to the general fund, will already grow by nearly a billion dollars by 2009-10. (See page 2 of
the linked document.) This year, "Actual Appropriations" are about $6.2 billion, and they're expected
to climb to nearly $7.1 billion by 2009-10. That's under current rules, without Referendum C. And if
Referendum C passes (see page 5), "Actual Appropriations" would increase to over $7.9 billion by 2009-10.

So Thornton at least gets one basic fact straight, though she doesn't relate all the relevant details.
Unfortunately, her column goes downhill from there.

She writes, "Opponents also falsely claim that the average family of four would forgo $3,200 if C and
D pass. They don't tell you that the fictional family would have to qualify for each one of the 16
different tax credits that make up TABOR's complicated rebate mechanism."

But "average" means just that. The most usual meaning of "average" is the mean, or you add up all the
refunds and divide by the total number of refunds.

And which body determines how the TABOR refunds are distributed? It is the legislature. As a recent
educational flyer from Active Citizens Together (ACT) points out, "'Average' means some get less,
some more, thanks to special laws by state legislators. That diversion to special interests of our
refunds can be repealed next year, before tax refunds begin."

Thornton writes, "A more accurate estimate, from the nonpartisan Legislative Council, is that if C
is rejected by voters, the average TABOR rebate next year will be just $15 per person. (Over the
five years, the rebates may rise to be closer to $100 per year, still a small price considering
what is at stake.)"

Here Thornton omits two crucial facts. First, the $100 figure is for the sales-tax refund only. As
the Blue Book states (page 4), "The sales tax refund accounts for about 42 percent of all TABOR
refunds as is distributed based on income levels. Taxpayers are expected to receive a total of
between $350 and $1,021 over the next five years, or an average of $491, in sales tax refunds."
Second, as the same page of the Blue Book makes clear, the refund is expected to increase every
year over the five-year period. Because Referendum C permanently ratchets-up state spending based
on the year of highest spending, the long-term reduction of TABOR sales-tax refunds would be much
more than $100 per year.

And, as ACT points out, the legislature could easily change the refund mechanism to make the payout
more proportional. Hopefully the legislature will act responsibly and stop playing games with the
TABOR refund. But, even if the legislature continues to refuse to take responsible action on the
matter of refund mechanisms, the average amount still is relevant, because that represents the
amount of money that would be taken out of the voluntary, productive economy.

Even though the $15 figure is completely irrelevant, Thornton proceeds with her column as though
Referendum C merely asks voters to give up a $15 refund. Her approach, then, is fundamentally
dishonest.

Thornton claims, "If C fails, Colorado faces a $2 billion budget shortfall over the next five years..."
But, even without Referendum C, "Actual Appropriations" will increase to record highs, by nearly a
billion dollars relative to this year's level. Her claim is completely arbitrary. There is no basis in
reality for the $2 billion figure, and the increasing budget faces a "shortfall" relative only to
Thornton's desired increases.

General-fund spending is already expected to increase around a billion dollars over the next five years.
The legislature can live within its budget by increasing efficiency and by cutting wasteful and
low-priority expenses. Meanwhile, the additional $3.743 billion that Referendum C asks from taxpayers
(over the first five years alone) would do a lot more good if left with the families that will earn that
money.

The Colorado Freedom Report--www.FreeColorado.com
kingfish
2005-10-30 19:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Wile I've voted against every tax increase in the last 15 years,
unfortunately I feel like I'm going to need to vote FOR C&D.

Until we come up with another way to fund Higher Ed and infrastructure, it
has to get paid for somehow. It's a shame that <again> the Libertarian types
have not come up with some sound alternatives, but again, they haven't.

What has already happened to our Higher Ed funding due to Tabor is put
Colorado even further behind the rest of the nation. If C&D don't pass -
we'll be on the road to repealing TABOR in the next year or two.

Tabor was a good idea that was poorly thought out.

Though all of the rhetoric from both sides has made it difficult to find the
truth, it looks to me like at the end of those 5 years we will still be
collecting and keeping less tax than we were in 2001. I guess that is simple
enough to grasp.
Poppa H
2005-10-31 03:06:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by kingfish
Wile I've voted against every tax increase in the last 15 years,
unfortunately I feel like I'm going to need to vote FOR C&D.
Until we come up with another way to fund Higher Ed and infrastructure, it
has to get paid for somehow. It's a shame that <again> the Libertarian
types have not come up with some sound alternatives, but again, they
haven't.
What has already happened to our Higher Ed funding due to Tabor is put
Colorado even further behind the rest of the nation. If C&D don't pass -
we'll be on the road to repealing TABOR in the next year or two.
Tabor was a good idea that was poorly thought out.
Though all of the rhetoric from both sides has made it difficult to find
the truth, it looks to me like at the end of those 5 years we will still
be collecting and keeping less tax than we were in 2001. I guess that is
simple enough to grasp.
True that the truth has been hard to come by throughout the campaign.

My understanding is that C is basically a permission slip to keep more tax
money that may or may not be refunded (something that depends on TABOR).
The problem I have with this is that there is no clear plan as to how the
money would be spent. The claim I've heard is that there would be some sort
of stipulation requiring that all the expenditures be documented after the
fact.

My understanding of D is that it's a bill to allow the state to take out a
loan to fund things like raises for government employees, teachers and other
state-run operations. This makes no sense to me, and I'd much rather
someone introduce a bill that will allocate revenue to these things, rather
than borrowing money to fund them.

Am I wrong about these? Does anyone have any REAL facts about the
referendums? If I'm even close to being right, then the lawmakers have
completely failed us in coming up with such piss poor initiatives.
Chuck Wright
2005-10-31 14:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by kingfish
Wile I've voted against every tax increase in the last 15 years,
unfortunately I feel like I'm going to need to vote FOR C&D.
Until we come up with another way to fund Higher Ed and infrastructure, it
has to get paid for somehow. It's a shame that <again> the Libertarian types
have not come up with some sound alternatives, but again, they haven't.
The taxpayers shouldn't be forced to subsidize the education of
wealthy people who could afford to pay for their children's
education themselves. Instead of C&D we should establish means
testing for education subsidies so that only those who truly can't
afford to pay get an education subsidy.
Post by kingfish
What has already happened to our Higher Ed funding due to Tabor is put
Colorado even further behind the rest of the nation. If C&D don't pass -
we'll be on the road to repealing TABOR in the next year or two.
C&D don't guarantee that even one extra penny will be spent on
higher education. That's because while some of the revenue
generated by C&D will go to education, the legislature can
move an equal amount of money that is already allocated
to higher education to other programs.

C&D are blank checks that effectively allow the money to be
spent on almost anything.
Post by kingfish
Tabor was a good idea that was poorly thought out.
True. It's too weak. It doesn't stop the growth of state
government. Instead it only slows down the growth of
state government.
Post by kingfish
Though all of the rhetoric from both sides has made it difficult to find the
truth, it looks to me like at the end of those 5 years we will still be
collecting and keeping less tax than we were in 2001. I guess that is simple
enough to grasp.
Very unlikely.

Chuck Wright
http://www.lp.org/
kingfish
2005-11-01 03:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
Wile I've voted against every tax increase in the last 15 years,
unfortunately I feel like I'm going to need to vote FOR C&D.
Until we come up with another way to fund Higher Ed and infrastructure, it
has to get paid for somehow. It's a shame that <again> the Libertarian types
have not come up with some sound alternatives, but again, they haven't.
The taxpayers shouldn't be forced to subsidize the education of
wealthy people who could afford to pay for their children's
education themselves.
wealthy peoples kids don't go to state schools in CO.

As a matter of fact - fewer and fewer peoples kids will go to state schools
in Colorado. State schools in CO will also start turning out few quality
graduates of merit, and business will take note and go elsewhere. Yea
Chuck - our economy depends on the success of CU andCSU and the community
colleges in CO.

Instead of C&D we should establish means
Post by Chuck Wright
testing for education subsidies so that only those who truly can't
afford to pay get an education subsidy.
That isn't how higer ed works.

Higher ed is built around excellence and research and academics... that is
much more than paying a prof and keeping the room warm Chuck.
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
What has already happened to our Higher Ed funding due to Tabor is put
Colorado even further behind the rest of the nation. If C&D don't pass -
we'll be on the road to repealing TABOR in the next year or two.
C&D don't guarantee that even one extra penny will be spent on
higher education. That's because while some of the revenue
generated by C&D will go to education, the legislature can
move an equal amount of money that is already allocated
to higher education to other programs.
like what
Post by Chuck Wright
C&D are blank checks that effectively allow the money to be
spent on almost anything.
you sound like the commercials
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
Tabor was a good idea that was poorly thought out.
True. It's too weak.
no, it's too one dimensional. If we are not going to pay for education,
infrastructure and healthcare with tax dollars - we need an alternative in
place FIRST. It hasn't come second (obviously) or tuitions would not be
rising while scholastic offerings are dissapearing. How is it going to
happen Chuck? (You will need a better answer than you don't want to pay for
some rich kid to go to school.)

How about the middle class?

My kids and my tuition money will be better spent in another state - and
unfortunately as they are getting to the age where we need to consider where
they will be attending school - I am becoming convinced that is the way we
will have to go in order for them to get the top quality education they
deserve. That right - my middle class dollars leaving Colorado.


It doesn't stop the growth of state
Post by Chuck Wright
government. Instead it only slows down the growth of
state government.
Tell me Chuck - What was the state budget for higher ed in 2001 compared to
2005?
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
Though all of the rhetoric from both sides has made it difficult to find the
truth, it looks to me like at the end of those 5 years we will still be
collecting and keeping less tax than we were in 2001. I guess that is simple
enough to grasp.
Very unlikely.
do you know?!
Post by Chuck Wright
Chuck Wright
http://www.lp.org/
Chuck Wright
2005-11-01 12:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by kingfish
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
Wile I've voted against every tax increase in the last 15 years,
unfortunately I feel like I'm going to need to vote FOR C&D.
Until we come up with another way to fund Higher Ed and infrastructure, it
has to get paid for somehow. It's a shame that <again> the Libertarian types
have not come up with some sound alternatives, but again, they haven't.
The taxpayers shouldn't be forced to subsidize the education of
wealthy people who could afford to pay for their children's
education themselves.
wealthy peoples kids don't go to state schools in CO.
There are plenty of people who send their kids to state schools in
Colorado who could afford to pay the full cost of their children's
higher education. Still more could afford to pay a higher proportion
than what they pay today.
Post by kingfish
As a matter of fact - fewer and fewer peoples kids will go to state
schools in Colorado.
Hopefully if they have to pay more of the full cost, fewer will
go there just to party.
Post by kingfish
State schools in CO will also start turning out few quality
graduates of merit, and business will take note and go elsewhere. Yea
The opposite is true. If people have to pay more of the full cost
of their education, they'll value it more and spend more time
studying instead of partying.
Post by kingfish
Chuck - our economy depends on the success of CU andCSU and the community
colleges in CO.
Of course. But that doesn't mean that we can't ask people to
pay what they can afford to pay.
Post by kingfish
Instead of C&D we should establish means
Post by Chuck Wright
testing for education subsidies so that only those who truly can't
afford to pay get an education subsidy.
That isn't how higer ed works.
I agree that's not the way it works today. Means testing is an
improvement I'm proposing.
Post by kingfish
Higher ed is built around excellence and research and academics... that is
much more than paying a prof and keeping the room warm Chuck.
Agreed. What does that have to do with means testing?
Post by kingfish
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
What has already happened to our Higher Ed funding due to Tabor is put
Colorado even further behind the rest of the nation. If C&D don't pass -
we'll be on the road to repealing TABOR in the next year or two.
C&D don't guarantee that even one extra penny will be spent on
higher education. That's because while some of the revenue
generated by C&D will go to education, the legislature can
move an equal amount of money that is already allocated
to higher education to other programs.
like what
Anything the legislature wants.
Post by kingfish
Post by Chuck Wright
C&D are blank checks that effectively allow the money to be
spent on almost anything.
you sound like the commercials
It happens to be true and you cannot refute.
Post by kingfish
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
Tabor was a good idea that was poorly thought out.
True. It's too weak.
no, it's too one dimensional. If we are not going to pay for education,
infrastructure and healthcare with tax dollars - we need an alternative in
place FIRST.
I've suggested an alternative: Means testing. People who can
afford it should pay for their own children's education. Some
will not be able to afford 100 percent but can afford to pay
more than what they are paying now.
Post by kingfish
It hasn't come second (obviously) or tuitions would not be
rising while scholastic offerings are dissapearing. How is it going to
happen Chuck? (You will need a better answer than you don't want to pay for
some rich kid to go to school.)
A means testing law would have to be passed by the legislature.
Post by kingfish
How about the middle class?
Most of the middle class can afford to pay far more for their
children's education than what they are paying today. Many
could afford to pay the full cost.
Post by kingfish
My kids and my tuition money will be better spent in another state - and
unfortunately as they are getting to the age where we need to consider where
they will be attending school - I am becoming convinced that is the way we
will have to go in order for them to get the top quality education they
deserve. That right - my middle class dollars leaving Colorado.
That's always your option.
Post by kingfish
It doesn't stop the growth of state
Post by Chuck Wright
government. Instead it only slows down the growth of
state government.
Tell me Chuck - What was the state budget for higher ed in 2001 compared to
2005?
Far too high.
Post by kingfish
Post by Chuck Wright
Post by kingfish
Though all of the rhetoric from both sides has made it difficult to find the
truth, it looks to me like at the end of those 5 years we will still be
collecting and keeping less tax than we were in 2001. I guess that is simple
enough to grasp.
Very unlikely.
do you know?!
Yes.

Chuck Wright
http://www.lpcolorado.org/

Chuck Wright
2005-10-31 17:55:47 UTC
Permalink
One other thing.....

Even if the revenues do end up going to higher education,
there's nothing to prevent those dollars from being wasted
nevertheless. The revenues could be wasted on administration
or parties, for example, rather than making its way to the
classroom or to lower tuition. Colorado's public institutions of
higher learning have a poor track record on waste. They can't
be trusted to efficiently use taxpayer money.

Chuck Wright
http://www.lpcolorado.org/
Post by kingfish
Wile I've voted against every tax increase in the last 15 years,
unfortunately I feel like I'm going to need to vote FOR C&D.
Until we come up with another way to fund Higher Ed and infrastructure, it
has to get paid for somehow. It's a shame that <again> the Libertarian types
have not come up with some sound alternatives, but again, they haven't.
What has already happened to our Higher Ed funding due to Tabor is put
Colorado even further behind the rest of the nation. If C&D don't pass -
we'll be on the road to repealing TABOR in the next year or two.
Tabor was a good idea that was poorly thought out.
Though all of the rhetoric from both sides has made it difficult to find the
truth, it looks to me like at the end of those 5 years we will still be
collecting and keeping less tax than we were in 2001. I guess that is simple
enough to grasp.
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